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DotNetNuke Forums
 
  Forum  General DotNetN...  Extend It! ( Pr...  SQL database schema for Cambrian release
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New Post 5/11/2008 12:17 AM
User is offline Sebastian Leupold
12977 posts
www.deutschnetnuke.de
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Re: SQL database schema for Cambrian release 

 Scott Stokes wrote

I'm not 100% certain that is what the original poster is asking to be done to the next DNN release.
If it is, or even if it's not what is being asked, the important issues and reasoning would be:

Why.
How.
What is it going to break.

Scott,

the Core Team is trying its best to improve the product without breaking changes and there are NONE planned in the public interfaces for DNN 5. We still continue to support SQL 2000, ASP.Net 2.0 (i.e. 3.0 and 3.5 are not required).


Sebastian Leupold



DotNetNuke Project UserDefinedTable
DotNetNuke Project XML/XSL
 
New Post 5/11/2008 10:58 AM
User is offline CT
50 posts
10th Ranked


Re: SQL database schema for Cambrian release 

Since I am the original poster of this thread regarding SQL database schemas versus owners, I will try to summarize things here for everybody's benefit.

Sebastian has informed us in the most recent reply that SQL Server 2000 will continue to be supported and that there are no changes planned in the public interface for DNN 5.

Scott has asked "Why, How, and What is going to break". Let me answer as follows:

Why:

Please see significant benefits of owner-schema separation as explained by Microsoft at

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms190387.aspx

which is the SQL Server 2005 Books Online article entitled "User-Schema Separation". The benefits of namespace schemas as containers with the convention of the dot character "." marking the container boundaries has proven itself over and over again. And Microsoft in the article clearly explains the distinction between the namespace schema container and the security principals who may own the containers.

How:

I will personally implement a customized data provider for SQL Server 2005 and higher which will provide the necessary switch enabling optional use of this facility for those who desire. Rhys, you are welcome to continue to criticize the implementation and judge for yourself whether it represents true functionality or what you wish to call "prettiness".  I know that it will offer me true functionality otherwise I would not bother to implement it.

What will it break:

Nothing. If I succeed in implementing it correctly with the proper diagnostics, failsafes, and switches for selection of options by the administrator, then both the current existing DNN mechanisms should operate or the new mechanism should operate as determined by the administrator's choice for use on any new customized modules. Obviously I cannot make the new mechanism operational on the Core, but I can make it applicable to any new modules separate from the core including my own new modules.

When:

I will wait until there's a public release of DNN 5 beta before beginning work on this customized data provider, and wait until there's a stable release of DNN 5 before releasing my customized data provider. Anybody interested in working on this with me - whether to discuss requirements or to help with coding - is welcome to contact me. 


CT
 
New Post 5/12/2008 8:12 AM
User is offline Mitch Sellers
5028 posts
www.mitchelsellers.com
3rd Ranked




Re: SQL database schema for Cambrian release 

CT,

From a technical perspective the way that each module developer writes their SQL scripts etc, if you put something in place that modifies those queries you are opening up a huge point of failure to your DNN installation, and also pull yourself outside of ANY potential for support from the module developer, at least in most cases.

I don't see the major need for this change....everything works perfectly fine as it is, and there are no performance implications of making the change.  It appears to be more of a desire to fall inline with the hype of new features for the sake of saying that you can implement it.

I am all for change, however, as the above people have pointed out DNN must cater to the large community, and at this point dropping support for SQL Server 2000 would not be a good thing....as many people are still running on it...


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New Post 5/12/2008 9:34 AM
User is offline Sanjay Mehrotra
402 posts
www.acuitisolutions.com
8th Ranked




Re: SQL database schema for Cambrian release 

 CT wrote

Since I am the original poster of this thread regarding SQL database schemas versus owners, I will try to summarize things here for everybody's benefit.

Sebastian has informed us in the most recent reply that SQL Server 2000 will continue to be supported and that there are no changes planned in the public interface for DNN 5.

Scott has asked "Why, How, and What is going to break". Let me answer as follows:

Why:

Please see significant benefits of owner-schema separation as explained by Microsoft at

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms190387.aspx

which is the SQL Server 2005 Books Online article entitled "User-Schema Separation". The benefits of namespace schemas as containers with the convention of the dot character "." marking the container boundaries has proven itself over and over again. And Microsoft in the article clearly explains the distinction between the namespace schema container and the security principals who may own the containers.

How:

I will personally implement a customized data provider for SQL Server 2005 and higher which will provide the necessary switch enabling optional use of this facility for those who desire. Rhys, you are welcome to continue to criticize the implementation and judge for yourself whether it represents true functionality or what you wish to call "prettiness".  I know that it will offer me true functionality otherwise I would not bother to implement it.

What will it break:

Nothing. If I succeed in implementing it correctly with the proper diagnostics, failsafes, and switches for selection of options by the administrator, then both the current existing DNN mechanisms should operate or the new mechanism should operate as determined by the administrator's choice for use on any new customized modules. Obviously I cannot make the new mechanism operational on the Core, but I can make it applicable to any new modules separate from the core including my own new modules.

When:

I will wait until there's a public release of DNN 5 beta before beginning work on this customized data provider, and wait until there's a stable release of DNN 5 before releasing my customized data provider. Anybody interested in working on this with me - whether to discuss requirements or to help with coding - is welcome to contact me. 

 

 

CT - just wanted to add my two cents to this - remember also that DotNetNuke runs on Oracle too and has since the 2x days. The core (thankfully so) is cognizant of this fact and has to be careful that changes they make doesn't affect the userbase that is currently using Oracle and DNN...
Also, just want to point out, as the author of the oracle dataprovider for DotNetNuke, creating a dataprovider may look like an "easy" task but it takes time and effort. Not saying that you can't do it but just making sure that you're aware that it's not exactly a half an hour effort...

Sanjay


AcuitiDP - Oracle Data Provider for DotNetNuke
 
New Post 5/12/2008 11:42 AM
User is offline CT
50 posts
10th Ranked


Re: SQL database schema for Cambrian release 
Modified By CT  on 5/12/2008 2:44:38 PM)

Sanjay,

I appreciate your concerns.

Standards can be both good and bad. They are good when they promote interoperability between diverse platforms, systems, environments. They are bad when they discourage and/or prevent innovation, progress, and exploiting the benefits and advantages of a particular system.

Presumably, it is possible to have the best of both worlds, ie, interoperability between systems while simultaneously allowing for full exploitation of unique systems. A properly designed framework should allow for this possibility by clarifying what is required for the abstract data provider (supporting DotNetNuke) and what is permitted for the concrete data providers for each of the unique backend data stores (supporting Oracle versus Microsoft versus whatever).

So really your concerns address the underlying debate about whether to adhere to the ANSI SQL standard or not when it comes to supporting all backend data stores. Well I guess that boils down to whether or not there's a desire to ignore or to exploit those Microsoft SQL Server features that offer benefits but fail to comply with ANSI SQL Standards!!!

Also, since I have been getting quite a number of remarks that seem to assume this or that about me, perhaps I really should say a word about myself as welll as about some assumptions in general. Just because a programmer is a newcomer to DotNetNuke and may wish to ask questions and discuss topics in this forum, that does not necessarily mean that that programmer is a newcomer to Microsoft technologies or to programming and development in general.

So just to set the record straight, I have been working with computer hardware and software since the 1970's, I have programmed in everything from assembly to many of the higher level languages that have been popular since that era. So you folks out there need not worry about whether I am "naive" about either programming or development practices or the amount of effort and time to accomplish whatever.

CT


CT
 
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